During the Real Time appearance, both Harris and Maher mounted the familiar argument that their position is a defense of “liberal principles” that others, out of fear, timidity, or perhaps relativism are applying selectively. Maher:
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“Impossible,” began one of the elders, handing his pipe on to his neighbor, who interrupted, “Of course it wasn’t the dead chief. It was an omen sent by a witch. Go on.”
In the initial invasion of the Jin in 1211, Subutai served with Jebe's army that attacked the Chinese forts around the eastern edge of the Great Wall (not the Ming Great Wall ). In late 1211 he was the first to scale the walls of the key fortress of Huan-Chou, and took part in the ambush of a major Jin army at Wu Sha Pao and the climactic battle of Yehuling . In 1212, he may have served with Jebe during the latter's daring capture of Liaoyang, and in 1213 he served with Muqali and Jebe in a great raid in Shandong.